Is this legal in any way?

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Mike_Levy
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Is this legal in any way?

Post by Mike_Levy »

Heard about a TSB from GM saying the following:
General Motors is identifying an increasing number of engine, transmission and catalytic converter part failures that are the result of non-GM (aftermarket) engine and transmission control calibrations being used.When alteration to the GM-released engine or transmission control calibrations occurs, it subjects powertrain and driveline components (engine , transmission, transfer case, driveshaft and rear axle) to stresses that were not tested by General Motors. It is because of these unknown stresses, and the potential to alter reliability, durability and emissions performance, that GM has adopted a policy to cancel any remaining warranty coverage to the powertrain and driveline components whenever the presence of a non-GM (aftermarket) calibration is confirmed - even if the non-GM control module calibration is subsequently removed.
I don't see how thats legal. Its a direct violation of the Magnuson Moss Act. They're cancelling coverage before the aftermarket parts cause any problems. No proof, no nothing.

Audi has a similar TSB, except they're just marking the warranty for manual reviews instead of automatically covering everything.

Either way, it feels like its going against Mag-Moss.
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mikel
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Re: Is this legal in any way?

Post by mikel »

Yeah, I dont like it at all.
Thats been their stance since thy implemented the CVN stuff, so they are pretty sure they can always tell when a PCM has been flashed with a non stock tune ;)
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Re: Is this legal in any way?

Post by Mike_Levy »

I don't like how manufacturers think they're above the law. I already contacted SEMA about the Audi TSB, and it looks like I'll send over the GM one too, just to make sure that its not legal. Pretty sure its not, but before I start calling corporate offices, I need to be sure. I'm not about to let these scumbags get away with this shit and set a precedence that the other manufacturers can follow.

Way I see it, I bought the car. It belongs to me, I'm going to do what I want to it whether they like it or not. And they're going to fix it, and pay for it, for the duration of the warranty, whether they like it or not. If their crummy parts can't handle extra power, thats not my problem. Thats their problem for using inferior parts. Build it right and it will be fine.
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smackdownsrt
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Re: Is this legal in any way?

Post by smackdownsrt »

Or at the very least pro-rating the warranty instead of pocketing it since the warranty is obv incorporated into the price, esp those with "free" service.
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monster71
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Re: Is this legal in any way?

Post by monster71 »

I do agree with the points but want to share my thoughts. DS needs to make and maintain a product that is reliable. The biggest selling point I see from DS is "first to market". Big deal. If the product isnt reliable what difference is it if it's first to market. There are hundreds of reports on this forum of issues, problems, and concerns. Which none of are car manufacturers fault.

A car warranty is just that. Meaning the maker is responsible for "their" defects. I understand Mag Law and the factory's role in proving that a changed part caused the issue we are wanting the warranty to cover. If DS was sure that their work and product is not an issue then Im not sure why we have to remove the tunes they provide prior to taking car in? Well actually I do. Its easier on DS. And the consumer. It allows the consumer to take it in, no questions asked. But as Mike Levy posted, manufacturers are questioning and are digging in to find ways to place liability onto the vehicle owner.

Which brings me to my next point. If you buy an extended warranty wouldn't that cover whatever the manufacturer warranty doesn't? That is what I bought it for. Dealership said if you drive hard, play hard, and plan on changing things up a bit, you need the extended to cover yourself. Not only does it give extra time to the service contract it covers the "gaps". Like buying an Ipod at Target. Yeah you get manufacturer warranty but if you buy the extended it will cover things the manufacturer won't, like cracked screen. Obviously a car is not an Ipod but as an example.

So bottom line. DS should make a product that is reliable enough and proven to not cause issues to covered warrantied parts. If that is not possible, then on the "accept" boot up screen it should be made very clear that loading a non OE tune may void the manufacturer warranty.
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Re: Is this legal in any way?

Post by mikel »

monster71 wrote:I do agree with the points but want to share my thoughts. DS needs to make and maintain a product that is reliable. The biggest selling point I see from DS is "first to market". Big deal. If the product isnt reliable what difference is it if it's first to market. There are hundreds of reports on this forum of issues, problems, and concerns. Which none of are car manufacturers fault.

A car warranty is just that. Meaning the maker is responsible for "their" defects. I understand Mag Law and the factory's role in proving that a changed part caused the issue we are wanting the warranty to cover. If DS was sure that their work and product is not an issue then Im not sure why we have to remove the tunes they provide prior to taking car in? Well actually I do. Its easier on DS. And the consumer. It allows the consumer to take it in, no questions asked. But as Mike Levy posted, manufacturers are questioning and are digging in to find ways to place liability onto the vehicle owner.

Which brings me to my next point. If you buy an extended warranty wouldn't that cover whatever the manufacturer warranty doesn't? That is what I bought it for. Dealership said if you drive hard, play hard, and plan on changing things up a bit, you need the extended to cover yourself. Not only does it give extra time to the service contract it covers the "gaps". Like buying an Ipod at Target. Yeah you get manufacturer warranty but if you buy the extended it will cover things the manufacturer won't, like cracked screen. Obviously a car is not an Ipod but as an example.

So bottom line. DS should make a product that is reliable enough and proven to not cause issues to covered warrantied parts. If that is not possible, then on the "accept" boot up screen it should be made very clear that loading a non OE tune may void the manufacturer warranty.
You seem to be missing the point.

At issue here, is the fact that GM claims that if they can simply tell the PCM was ever flashed by a non GM flash, you lose your warranty.
No claim of that flash being bad, or even being a non stock calibration, just blanketly void if they dont like it. They dont have to prove it was bad, or a problem, or unsafe, or anything. They just have to prove it was flashed, which is a tough spot for anyone.
Do you feel you should lose the warranty on your truck because you used a tuner simply to recalibrate the speedo for larger tires or different gears? Or should users drive around with the speedo wrong, so the trans eats itself up and has to be fixed, under warranty? See what Im getting at? There is nothing fair about the policy. Fortunately, it is a non issue for our customers.

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monster71
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Re: Is this legal in any way?

Post by monster71 »

Thx Mike. Yeah I get it. I do like your last statement about not being an issue for your customers. Can you expand on this? I think many of your customers do have warranty concerns. So with DS as my tuner company there should never be a concern as a consumer that my warranty will be marked?
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Re: Is this legal in any way?

Post by mikel »

monster71 wrote:Thx Mike. Yeah I get it. I do like your last statement about not being an issue for your customers. Can you expand on this? I think many of your customers do have warranty concerns. So with DS as my tuner company there should never be a concern as a consumer that my warranty will be marked?
One of our most impressive features is being undetectable by GMs CVN check that they use to verify GM flashes.... :)
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monster71
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Re: Is this legal in any way?

Post by monster71 »

Nice. I have a Challenger. I assume im undetectable too. Lmao.
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Re: Is this legal in any way?

Post by mikel »

there is no check in place for them like gm.

they encrypted the 11+ pcms so tightly, that it would seem they assumed nobody would ever get in, hence no need to check for it :)
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Re: Is this legal in any way?

Post by Mike_Levy »

Lets see if these work. I think they may be too small. This is Audis version of it.
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monster71
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Re: Is this legal in any way?

Post by monster71 »

Wow. Really. CAI is considered as "tuning" and could be cause for no warranty work, as is a short shifter. And would be tagged TD1. Guess ima have to buy a Smart car. Bet they will say my 270 lb body frame voids the warranty. :)
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Re: Is this legal in any way?

Post by Whiterock1 »

Air filters, including those in a CAI, have been held by the courts to be covered under the Moss-Mag act. Unless they were to be the direct cause of a problem, e.g., water ingestion through a low mounted CAI like the Vara-Ram, they do not void the warranty under any other circumstances. Short throw shifters are a non issue, as they have nothing to do with the internals of the tranny and could not under any circumstances be the de facto problem. They would lose either in court, so basically it's scare tactics BS.
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Re: Is this legal in any way?

Post by Mike_Levy »

Thats what I was saying originally. I don't see how any of this is legal.

Side note, Neither GM nor Audi has responded back to me questioning them, and unfortunately, neither has SEMA. SEMA normally takes a few weeks to respond, while they research the issue, but the manufacturers have to be avoiding the issue. They usually respond in a day or 2.
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