2005 Hummer H2, 2007 Jeep Wrangler JK available for testing.

[scootusmc]

My Hummer and Jeep are both outfitted with HHO Generators. I want a programmer vice MAP/MAF enhancer and O2 spacers because I will have ZERO modifications to the engine other than a tap in the intake and the exhaust manifold for EGT. The tuner will need to retard my timing and monitor EGTs. I will need to move ingnition to between TDC/AFTD up to the 3000-3500 rpm range. My 3.8 liter Jeep is consuming 2 liters of HHO per minute and the 6 liter H2 will soon be installed with a 3 Lpm system. Without the proper tuner or fooling your sensors, these HHO systems actually do more harm towards HP and MPG due to the flame speed being 10 times faster than gasoline, mock 3.5 to be exact, and having exhaust so clean your computer thinks your running lean and dumps even more fuel into the cylinder. Burning all your gas BTDC is obviously not the way forward. Please don't bother me with the can'ts and don'ts. My best advice is to stop listening to the nay-sayers and quit reading the MASSIVE amounts of misinformation on the internet. Hydrogen is the future, make no mistake about it. My realistic goal is 25-30 highway mpgs in a 6600 lb Hummer. I will only get better once I get flexible solar panels installed on the roof powering my HHO generators, taking all the drag off the alternator.

[mikel]

problem is bud, there is no way to convince the PCM of what you are doing.

Even if commanded open loop and asking for a super lean AFR, it will only let you get so far.

I looked into HHO quite a bit, even built a crappy generator with a friend, but I realized the only way its going to be effective is with a highly modified carburetor, which I'm not looking to play with.

The OEM PCM is simply not designed for this, I'd maybe look into some of the aftermarket ECUs out there.

Thanks

[scootusmc]

Did you ever try using a MAP/MAF enhancer and spacing your O2 sensors out of the exhaust path? This will give me physical control of the voltage my MAP sensor (no MAF on my jeep) is sending and the O2 sensor won't indicate a lean state. Thats my fall back but ideally I want to be able to go back to stock timing, a/f and run on just gas if I need to. I can cut the MAP enhancer off with a flick of a switch, just don't want to have to jack with moving O2 sensors in and out.

[scootusmc]

......and I think you meant ECM, not PCM. PCM - powertrain, ECM - engine. HHO generators are very effective, IF you do it right. There's no room for "ignorance is bliss" with these systems unless you want to reduce gas mileage or melt all the aluminum in your engine. That includes adjusting timing from BTDC to TDC or AFTD (if your burning most all of your fuel BTDC you're just working in reverse), either taking control of your sensors or fooling your ECM with a MAP/MAF enhancer and addressing the O2 sensors upstream from the catalytic converter and monitoring exhaust temps with an EGT sensor. With carburetors you have direct control of the a/f mixture with none of the computer stuff to deal with. Why you would need anything modified, much less highly modified?

[mikel]

umm...your 05 computer controls the engine and trans, thus it is a PCM, powertrain control module.
The 07 Wrangler NGC is a PCM as well, as it controls your engine and trans, and more.
If you had an 05 Wrangler or an 08 H2, you could say ECM as they use a separate TCM.

Keep in mind, this is all we do here my friend

As fas as modifying the carb, most carbs are again not designed for this, so trying to get the A/F leaned out enough to make it work will likely require some modifications to the carb itself.

[scootusmc]

Well you got me....I stand corrected. Didn't realize my 2 toys didn't have an ECM. I just knew I needed to fool "the computer" but never bothered with its nomenclature. So are you saying that a MAP enhancer paired with spacing the O2 sensors won't fool the PCM? Do you see any conflict with using the MAP/O2 set up above to adjust my a/f and the Diablo Trinity to retard my timing? I'm just not sure what the Diablo monitors with regards to a/f and how it uses that info. Why don't they make programmers that adjust a/f? My only concern with the MAP enhancer is that I won't be able to adjust my a/f along my rpm range, it will just be a set voltage until I hit WOT. I'll live with it if I have to but the O2 sensor spacing is the only thing that will keep me from going back to stock at the flick of a switch.

[scootusmc]

Do you have any information about the questions above? Thanks

[scootusmc]

Thanks for the help guys FYI, HHO generator is up and running, upstream O2 sensors are spaced, MAP enhancer is installed and I'm getting 38 MPG! I'd say I tricked the PCM alright. I still have an MSD ignition with timing control to install so I can retard my timing to TDC.....an option I uncovered myself. I figure I'll be getting at least 45 mpg, up from 19 stock on a 4 door, 3.8L Wrangler JK and my emissions are virtually nothing but water vapor, 98% water vapor to be exact. Just imagine, great gas mileage and no emissions, incredible low end torque and cruise that stays absolutely pegged no matter how steep the hill. I can literally crawl uphill in first gear at 5-600 rpm and can not get the Jeep to stall. Hydrogen son! Adios