New 7135 update, revised 09-10 5.7L tunes

[Charger250]

I dont konw what everyone expects? Miricles. Do they think you can just change a few things and it keeps getting better? Its not like the tuning engineer at DiabloSport holds back power and releases a weak version, then adds more power over time, or the other way around, gets worried it makes to much power.

Once you put in the tune and get 10 hp on average its done, they cannot magically throw a switch and make it 12 or 15. If that was the case Dodge would have done it, or at least DiabloSport would have it at 15 from the begenning.

The tunes dont have anything held back, they tune for max safe power, and thats it. What ever that increases it to is what we get, end of story. IF we get 8, good, if we get 10, better, but that isnt what happens, its tweaked for max, and done. wherever that lies is where it lies.

[concoursd]

The 21c and r21 are EXACTLY the same, the placebo effect is strong with the Challenger crowd....

Honestly guys, we have seen/heard this story time and again. We have literally taken croms down, renamed them, and put them back up only to hear how the new crom is 'SO much better' or 'feels lazy and sloppy'....lol. Its the car, not the tune....

Say it aint so Mike, say it aint so. LOL

[freebird_78]

Still having skip shift issues with 9r21. No canned tunes are removing the 1-4 skip shift on my '10 Challenger 6 speed. Vas tried helping me out by sending me a custom tune that should've axed the skip shift, but it ended up causing me to throw CEL P1129 (O2 sensors swapped). Back on 93 CAI, but still have skip shift.

[rham48]

The 21c and r21 are EXACTLY the same, the placebo effect is strong with the Challenger crowd....

Honestly guys, we have seen/heard this story time and again. We have literally taken croms down, renamed them, and put them back up only to hear how the new crom is 'SO much better' or 'feels lazy and sloppy'....lol. Its the car, not the tune....

Thanks Mikel, the word is being spread throughout the planet by Predator fans.

[dilky71]

The 21c and r21 are EXACTLY the same, the placebo effect is strong with the Challenger crowd....

Honestly guys, we have seen/heard this story time and again. We have literally taken croms down, renamed them, and put them back up only to hear how the new crom is 'SO much better' or 'feels lazy and sloppy'....lol. Its the car, not the tune....

so what you're saying is that your company is misleading it's customers in thinking that they are getting an upgrade when they are not and your making them waste their time. nice.

[neidan]

The 21c and r21 are EXACTLY the same, the placebo effect is strong with the Challenger crowd....

Honestly guys, we have seen/heard this story time and again. We have literally taken croms down, renamed them, and put them back up only to hear how the new crom is 'SO much better' or 'feels lazy and sloppy'....lol. Its the car, not the tune....

so what you're saying is that your company is misleading it's customers in thinking that they are getting an upgrade when they are not and your making them waste their time. nice.

Don't quite know what your talking about dilky71 but I think you misunderstand.

The c version was a beta test version. That's what we were evaluating. Then DS released a 'public' version of that tune. Some of those who were testing the tune prior to the public release were wondering if there was a difference between the c test version and the "public" release version, with the c dropped. A few thought they felt some difference. In fact there is no difference between the test and the public version. That's what Mike was referring to. No one is doing any type of misleading.... if fact it's just the opposite...

... it's cool man... chill.

[Quick]

The 21c and r21 are EXACTLY the same, the placebo effect is strong with the Challenger crowd....

Honestly guys, we have seen/heard this story time and again. We have literally taken croms down, renamed them, and put them back up only to hear how the new crom is 'SO much better' or 'feels lazy and sloppy'....lol. Its the car, not the tune....

so what you're saying is that your company is misleading it's customers in thinking that they are getting an upgrade when they are not and your making them waste their time. nice.

haha, The c version was a beta. beta ==> test, pre-release, etc. "r" versions are public release versions. So when the beta version checks out ok then they make it an "r" version. So they want to make a version with a fix in it available as soon as possible for the people who are screaming for it but they want to make sure that they know it hasn't going through the entire test cycle and might not be as robust as a release version...

oh look! there goes an ambulance! you can chase that.

[Gekko]

@ mikel

The u7135-9t21c.crom and u7135-9r21.crom FILES are not exactly the same.

I've used a hex editor to compare the two files. Besides the name and date information inside the files, there are a LOT of differences.

The settings it makes to the ECM may be the same, but the two crom files are NOT exactly the same.

Mike, would you care to reply/clarify on this?

BTW, I'm not trying to hammer you, I'm just a bit confused about this. Are all the reports due to the placebo effect, or might there actually be some small differences?

[Quick]

(I know, I know, I shouldn't say anything... but) This is really silly.

1) You found differences in the file itself with a hex editor but you don't have a clue as to what they are.
2) Mike said there are no differences in the tunes.

Possible explanations:
a) they used different "compiler" options to generate the release tune file. Maybe you can't debug it, maybe they removed debug code, maybe they optimized it, maybe they bumped some version/id strings or flags, etc, etc.
b) they cleaned up some parts of the code and removed changed some old code that wasn't used any more.
c) they removed some old/obsolete calid support.
d) Mike lied about there being no difference. The beta version produces shit loads more performance and they decided it was just too good to release so they cut it back in the release version. The tuners have been reprimanded and instructed not to put those kinds of performance gains in any tunes in the future.
e) So now that you've "caught" him we can expect Mike to come back with something like "Oh yea... I forgot. There ARE some small but noticeable improvements that we removed/withheld from the release version because I was in a bad mood and we need something snicker about here during our lunch breaks.

What's your guess? Let's say there are some changes. Let's say the beta is better than the release version. What do you think their reason/motive for removing them might be?

[mikel]

@ mikel

The u7135-9t21c.crom and u7135-9r21.crom FILES are not exactly the same.

I've used a hex editor to compare the two files. Besides the name and date information inside the files, there are a LOT of differences.

The settings it makes to the ECM may be the same, but the two crom files are NOT exactly the same.

Mike, would you care to reply/clarify on this?

BTW, I'm not trying to hammer you, I'm just a bit confused about this. Are all the reports due to the placebo effect, or might there actually be some small differences?

I would imagine by the time we got to the Hex editor part, that you would have figured this out by now....a crom is not a tune.

The part you feel in your car is a tune, and those are the same.

If you want to compare something, open a tune from 9t21c and from 9r21, and you will see they are identical. There are good reasons that test croms are complied differently than release croms, and thats all I will say on that matter.

[Quick]

(doh... now what?) Wait! Wait! I still think you're on to something. Here's the secret. The tune files are the same but the different CROMs send different parts of it to the car! You need to get your hex editor on the other side of the Predator and see what it actually downloads to the PCM. There's just no way those guys could be wrong. Doesn't matter that they didn't actually measure anything to compare like their timing or afr. They actually FELT the difference. No arguing with that. Here's a couple more reasons why this nefarious plot is being perpetrated on you.

1) That beta is the mother load of all hemi tunes, the holy grail. Chrysler knows about this and they keep it under wraps because there's no way they're going to let all the suckers unleash all the hidden power in these hemis. Everybody knows this. It's locked up next to the 100 mpg carburetor they killed years ago. Chrysler found out that DS stumbled on this tune by accident and sent the black helicopters. They made it very clear to the whole DS crew that if this was released and they didn't kill it somehow that they were going to make Mike and all the engineers and their families "disappear". Can you blame Mike? Wouldn't you do the same thing? I'd make sure to get that 9t21c file on an external storage like a SD card. When you run the DSdownloader it "phones home". They can tell it to look for and delete that file. Just watch, pretty soon you're going to be hearing stuff like "Anybody got the 9t21c file? I had it before but I must have accidently deleted it and now I can't find it on the site or anywhere else"...

2) They "say" that the tunes are the same for the Predator and the Trinity. Do you actually believe that? The tune files just might be the same but the cars just don't seem to run the same do they. How do they do that? See above. Obviously they want everybody to buy a Trinity because they make 10 times as much money off of them. So if they make the tunes better for the Trinity than the Predator, pretty soon everybody is going to have to go buy a Trinity. Sure they'll say they're the same, but those same guys that caught the de-tune from the beta to the release version are going to catch this difference too. That way, with the official line being that they're the same, no one can blame them for screwing the Predator owners but at the same time everybody will have to buy a Trinity if they want to keep up. (pretty dark huh, now you know why these guys have devils for avatars).

All this is absolutely true. Here's proof. DS offered to give me access to ALL the secret tunes that you guys will never see if I'd keep quiet about this. I'll have to admit I was tempted but I felt obligated to expose all this for the greater good of mopar/hemi owners everywhere. So you keep up the good fight and thank you for your support.

[mikel]

rofl.....

[Gekko]

@ Mike

As I stated in my first post, I only determined that the crom files were not identical; it's true, I had no idea if they did the same thing or not.

So, although the crom files are not identical, the tunes they apply are.

Thanks Mike, for taking the time to clear that up for me. Apparently I misunderstood and thought you were saying the 'files' were the same.


@ Quick

Thanks for your input. I hope you had as much fun writing your posts as I had reading them.

[danpotestio]

Bottom line after all this is simple. I have the test installed and like it, so I'm keeping it. You should do the same. I won't have to suffer through the placebo effects or the nefarious secret tunes. lol

[concoursd]

wow. I cant believe people are using hex editor to fact check this stuff.

There are also instances where diablosport makes an internal update in a new crom. It doesnt adjust the tunes but changes the menus in the predator, or logo on the boot up screen, or sets it up for new hardware, sometimes to resolve install glitches. It is hard to tell sometimes what an internal update changed but those types of updates dont change tuning.

In this situation, things were pretty straight forward. 9T21C was a test crom aka a beta crom. It was designed to quickly respond to customer needs and to help test across the country. If it needed to be tweaked then you would see a 9T21D or F or E. Then when its all a go, they make the final test crom into a new software revision and call it 9R21.

The confusion about this placebo effect is because people want to know if tune changes were made to the beta file 9T21C without releasing a new beta crom. That is a valid concern. It's unlikely that they would make tune changes and then skip the beta process they have already been using but who am I to question other predator users. So, when Mike says they are the same, then they are the same.