3.6 Challenger Tuner

[Mike_Levy]

Those cheap tuners are piggyback units, and are only available for the 6 cylinder. They're no good. V8s are the way to go. A real tune is pricey. $3500 for a halfassed tune. http://www.dinancars.com/shop/D900-44TX ... spx#page=1

Besides, AMG and M owners are far more likely to mod their cars then 3.6L owners, and they have money to do so. The kids who buy the V6 Challengers, Chargers and such may have to work 3 weeks to buy a Trinity, and thats if they have no other bills. The BMW and Benz owners (especially M and AMG) can afford one after a day or twos work and buy without a second thought.

[ltwhite]

You are finally getting it. Not all of us can afford AMGs or even SRT8s because we have kids and mortages, etc. Like generations of car guys before us, we just want to make the most of what we have and can afford. Nothing wrong with that.

Now just let the people who actually own Challengers and Chargers with 3.6 Pentastar speak about their actual first hand ownership experiences and what they would like to see from DS. None of us owners want to see more irrelevant posts from you cluttering up our discussion. Seeing how there appears to be no DS editor to make you go away, I'm afraid we will just have to ignore you from now on.

If anyone has experience with B&G Chrysler in Michigan or Arrington Performance in Virginia doing in-house tunes or shipping PCMs, please post something as that would add something useful to the discussion. Thanks.

[maine54]

Those cheap tuners are piggyback units, and are only available for the 6 cylinder. They're no good. V8s are the way to go. A real tune is pricey. $3500 for a halfassed tune. http://www.dinancars.com/shop/D900-44TX ... spx#page=1

Besides, AMG and M owners are far more likely to mod their cars then 3.6L owners, and they have money to do so. The kids who buy the V6 Challengers, Chargers and such may have to work 3 weeks to buy a Trinity, and thats if they have no other bills. The BMW and Benz owners (especially M and AMG) can afford one after a day or twos work and buy without a second thought.

Wow Mike, you sound like a woman, son. So V6 owners are poor and children....gotcha. Maybe some people do their research and realize that the Pentastar is up to par or surpasses the engineering of a HEMI, but hey that's spanish to you since I am not talking out of my ass, right? How much do you need to compensate--how sheepeshly brainwashed are you--how much were you bullied as a kid (which seems like a few years ago) to say V8's are the end-all-be-all?

Forums have a unwritten rule to automatically beget respect while amongst like minded individuals. You, apparently, did not get that memo and thee life needs a little bit more purpose, son.

[Mike_Levy]

I was done with this thread, but now you pulled me back. Nobody gives a shit about engineering. Okay, get that through your head right now. In this world, performance is what matters, not how you get it. You want engineering, go buy a Honda or Toyota. Surely their DOHC motors must be better then your SOHC. Fuck that. You sound like a ricer with your engineering talk and hp per liter. More is better. Bottom line.

You think I'm a kid, I'm probably older than you. I've been modding cars for longer then most V6 owners have been alive.

And your unwritten rules make for boring forums. If everybody agreed then what would people talk about? Conflict breeds interest.

[smackdownsrt]

I was done with this thread, but now you pulled me back. Nobody gives a shit about engineering. Okay, get that through your head right now. In this world, performance is what matters, not how you get it. You want engineering, go buy a Honda or Toyota. Surely their DOHC motors must be better then your SOHC. Fuck that. You sound like a ricer with your engineering talk and hp per liter. More is better. Bottom line.

You think I'm a kid, I'm probably older than you. I've been modding cars for longer then most V6 owners have been alive.

And your unwritten rules make for boring forums. If everybody agreed then what would people talk about? Conflict breeds interest.

The PentaStar over the Hemi? Is he stupid? I don't care how highly engineered it is, its still short 65hp and over 100ft/lbs and theres no excuse to choose it for anybody who can afford the Hemi, let alone anybody who has any intention of modding. Its the girls choice. But wtf do I know since I'm looking into buying an 'engineered' V6.

[Mike_Levy]

But your "engineered" V6 has 2 turbos shoving air down its throat and 530hp, mated to a dual clutch tranny and AWD. Its still a ricer, but thats a V6, along with Porsche's Twin turbo Flat 6, that I can get behind. If its got the 500hp that I require of my motor, along with torque thats close to that, I don't care how many cylinders it has. I prefer pushrod V8s, but I can accept other things. The Bimmer I'm about to buy has DOHC, my last Bimmer had a DOHC V8. Not my preference, but how can you argue with 555hp and 500ft/lbs?

[smackdownsrt]

But your "engineered" V6 has 2 turbos shoving air down its throat and 530hp, mated to a dual clutch tranny and AWD. Its still a ricer, but thats a V6, along with Porsche's Twin turbo Flat 6, that I can get behind.

You know that's right!

The Bimmer I'm about to buy has DOHC, my last Bimmer had a DOHC V8. Not my preference, but how can you argue with 555hp and 500ft/lbs?

You can't!

[cq842000]

I was done with this thread, but now you pulled me back. Nobody gives a shit about engineering. Okay, get that through your head right now. In this world, performance is what matters, not how you get it. You want engineering, go buy a Honda or Toyota. Surely their DOHC motors must be better then your SOHC. Fuck that. You sound like a ricer with your engineering talk and hp per liter. More is better. Bottom line.

You think I'm a kid, I'm probably older than you. I've been modding cars for longer then most V6 owners have been alive.

And your unwritten rules make for boring forums. If everybody agreed then what would people talk about? Conflict breeds interest.

To the poster attacking Mike, there is no need for those tactics here, if you want a civil discussion then lead by example my friend. Now Mike, let me address a few inconsistencies with your post. Firstly, engineering does alot to determine potential output... or performance as you state...pushrods work damn good though. As for Honda and Toyota, Toyota was the first to manufacture VVT and licensed it to others, Honda was the first manufacturer to engineer and design it to greater effect (Vtech) so they have their hands in pretty much every modern motor design that uses cam phasing or variable valve technology....think about that for a second. The Pentastar V6 is DOHC with four camshafts so I dont know where you get the SOHC argument. If Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW, Mercedes, Ford, Chevrolet, GM, and Dodge werent going for an engineered HP per liter in the R&D stages, there would be no need for your coveted V8 engine as ample output could be achieved with smaller displacement and cut manufacturing costs associated with V8s. Lastly, around 10% of our power is cut from the 3.6l (factory tuning) for smoother driving. This can be confirmed on the Pentastar website in the specifications section. I know you want more power... we actually want the same thing, so why are we on different sides of the coin when we share a common goal. You said it yourself, how you get there is unimportant.

[Mike_Levy]

Sorry I was thinking of the 3.5s SOHC heads.

[cq842000]

Sorry I was thinking of the 3.5s SOHC heads.

Hey no worries, an honest mistake. I know I've said this already, but I'll say it once more and let time do the talking and history prove me right... The Pentastar V6 market is locked in and ready to roll with custom tuning, demand and presence can be felt in any relevant given internet medium where the option is given. I dont even think I heard this much demand from the HEMI crowd number for number. I really think that there is a huge aftermarket gap created by lack of tuning that has done little to dissuade V6 ownership and so it goes without saying that if and when tuning becomes available, mark my words IT WILL SELL BIG...bigger than you or DS expected respectively and I really suspect that if the tunes are "all that", then it will be some tuning companies bread and butter for a while in comparison to other markets. Us V6 owners spent less on our rides, saved more with plans of tuning, and will spend more than the V8 guys to get real power out of our rides. I dont say these things lightly and I know it's sure to step on some toes and disagree with some statements, but I know that some day some company will see the immense value and demand from us V6 owners and open their friggin ears and listen to the customers. Diablo Sport seems to suffer from being completely disconnected from this segment of the market stuck in the past with an old as dirt mindset while automotive technology has leaped forward in many respects. The 3.6L V6 Pentastar represents one of these leaps forward and when tuning becomes available the numbers will paint the true picture of the market.

[mikel]

I dont even think I heard this much demand from the HEMI crowd number for number.

I promise you, we have never gotten so may emails, phone calls, forum posts, facebook posts, etc, as we have regarding 11+ HEMI tuning. I would bet that in the history of tuning, no tuner was ever in as much demand as the Trinity when it was first released for 11 applications.

I have sales numbers to back that up

I do look forward to seeing how well sales go once V6 is added. I have mentioned that I feel it will be pretty close to the HEMI home run, and once we add all the V6 stuff like SUVs, Rams, and other cars, it should be a huge market.

Thanks

[cq842000]

I dont even think I heard this much demand from the HEMI crowd number for number.

I promise you, we have never gotten so may emails, phone calls, forum posts, facebook posts, etc, as we have regarding 11+ HEMI tuning. I would bet that in the history of tuning, no tuner was ever in as much demand as the Trinity when it was first released for 11 applications.

I have sales numbers to back that up

I do look forward to seeing how well sales go once V6 is added. I have mentioned that I feel it will be pretty close to the HEMI home run, and once we add all the V6 stuff like SUVs, Rams, and other cars, it should be a huge market.

Thanks

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Allow me to inquire though how you gauge factual demand, is it solely based on end-user (sub-vendors not included) sales alone, actual product requests completed, or both? Surely you dont include subvendors in your calculations which would not count as installed, merely shipped? I know you say you have numbers, but you have yet to see a true comparison such as the 3.6l LD/LC/LX will offer nor did you state that you have considered some of that demand was actually from V6 owners both in product requests to get the ball moving as well as end-user purchasers because even though I am sitting on my money waiting for support, many V6 owners already purchased ahead of time without support... so I wonder if they are counted. It's not that I dont respect what you say, I just find it a little obtuse and lacking in granularity. I am personally counted among the large potential market I speak of and while some might misconstrue that as an agenda for bias, I strive in all things to remain objective and open minded, to include seeing both sides of the argument. There has been little to no effort to advertise definitive future support of the 3.6l LX/LD/LC and due to this alot of v6 owners are in the wait and see phase versus being very vocal like I am. they are no doubt watching the responses I get here to decide if DiabloSport will wise up or dumb down.... seriously would you expect differently if all you ever got was "no eta"? No eta by itself does not not imply nor does it state that the 3.6L owners will be supported absolutely...instead we are left to vague guesswork and sitting on funds in our bank account waiting a year or two for something that may or may not come. I stand behind what I said and I want to be quoted as saying it so vehemently because when it happens I want people to know I was on point with sales expectations and DiabloSport wasnt. As for you specifically MikeL, I feel that you are reasonable and full of knowledge but suffer from the same underestimating the V6 LX/LC/LD crowd just as your company does.

[mikel]

again , you are 'assuming' that we underestimate this market.

If that was the case, why in the world did we offer a tuner for the lackluster performing 3.5 V6 from 05-10 models??

Why do we tune V6 mustangs from 98-2014?

Again, there is no way in the world that anyone is going to convince me that this will sell more than the HEMI. No way. Not even close. Now, thats not to say that there is not potential for lots of sales, but it will not be HEMI sales.

Also, if you look around, I have clearly stated, numerous times, that we WILL be supporting the V6 market.
The minute I step past the 'no ETA' line, we become liars and thieves if we dont deliver by some set date, and development does not work that way
Once we have begun development, and gotten some cars in here for testing, we'll gladly guess at a release date, but until then, no ETA is the word

As for the lack of granularity...well, record sales tell me all I need to know here.
We also gather useful registration data for each tool we sell, thus we are not guessing, we are basing these numbers on what the customers tell us they are using the tuner on when they register it....

Thanks

[cq842000]

again , you are 'assuming' that we underestimate this market.

If that was the case, why in the world did we offer a tuner for the lackluster performing 3.5 V6 from 05-10 models??

Why do we tune V6 mustangs from 98-2014?

Again, there is no way in the world that anyone is going to convince me that this will sell more than the HEMI. No way. Not even close. Now, thats not to say that there is not potential for lots of sales, but it will not be HEMI sales.

Also, if you look around, I have clearly stated, numerous times, that we WILL be supporting the V6 market.
The minute I step past the 'no ETA' line, we become liars and thieves if we dont deliver by some set date, and development does not work that way
Once we have begun development, and gotten some cars in here for testing, we'll gladly guess at a release date, but until then, no ETA is the word

As for the lack of granularity...well, record sales tell me all I need to know here.
We also gather useful registration data for each tool we sell, thus we are not guessing, we are basing these numbers on what the customers tell us they are using the tuner on when they register it....

Thanks

Okay, again thanks for taking the time to respond. You offered a tuner for the 3.5l V6 which was a different animal than the 3.6l and bought solely for economy as you said there was only lackluster performance to be had. Not so with the 3.6l... I test drove a Hemi first and decided on the 3.6l w/8 speed regardless. As for why you tune mustangs, I've ran, test drove, and have experience with numerous v6 Mustangs and again the newer 3.7l V6 is a different beast vs the older v6...not to mention that Bama offers tuning for the Mustangs already vs none for the 3.6l LX/LD/LC.

I am not here to convince you of anything sans that there is a great demand for tuning from us that goes unanswered. I will let the numbers do the talking because I am absolutely convinced of the 3.6l demand... I am a very small and insignificant part of it but a part of it none the less. Doing a search here on the forums provides me with no lack of "no eta" comments so if you did say it, it would be oh so easy to miss. I understand that you cannot give an eta, I'm not asking for one I am asking you will the 2011+ LX/LC/LD cars ABSOLUTELY be supported or am I not being clear? This is all I have ever asked for and have yet to find a definite answer. Should you decide to post that 2011+ 3.6l Challengers/Chargers/300S will absolutely be supported in the future by DiabloSport, I'll take a trip on over to all the forums I am apart of and post this definitive answer in the relevant section.

Also for sales, do you or do you not count the V6 buyers that purchased early because how could you when they have no registration to enter or supported vehicle to plug into? Also do you sell 100 Trinity units and say okay guys we've sold more than ever before so any other market will simply fall flat of 100 or not sell 100? That doesnt make any sense and you know it, again I hold firm on DS underestimating the demand. I personally would like to see support, from whatever company even MOPAR or Arrington at this point because I am done trying to help make DS a better company by stating and representing my demand.

[maine54]

That was a pretty good reply Mike Levy....made me have short thoughts of recant. Look, I'm sure we won't ever know the limits or lack thereof when it comes to one another's knowledge base, but your bias and arrogance, is daunting to say the least. Like I said, if you actually researched the specs intimately on the Pentastar you would understand what and why I said in regards to my engineering piece. And, seriously, when did engineering get replaced by cylinder annexes? The VR38DETT is one of the most highly engineered V6's ever made, and others don't fall short from that grace. In my opinion the Road Runner is one of the better engineered V8's, and I am saying that because I am not biased against any type of displacement because I have worked on them/driven them. If you actually partake in said research you will see why I preferred the Pentastar over the HEMI, affordability is out the window once how much work and nd money put into it is out in the air. But, on your coveted V8, what snide remarks of poverish insults do you have on RT owners.....Why didn't they just buy the SRT. Corvette owners buying a Z06 instead of the ZR1.....GTR owners buying the Black edition instead of the JUKE-R. Get my point. Everyone has there nitch, and gear heads have there nitch on a much more detailed echelon. People buying what they buy shouldn't extract disrespect from a like minded individual.