If no questions are dumb questions, here goes mine....

[johnny248]

Short background. I own an '11 1500 Quad Cab 4x4 5.7L. I purchased my Trinity a little over a year ago. The truck is essentially stock except for a Volant CAI and Oil Catch Can, and a 190deg t-stat. At some point I installed Denso LL Iridium plugs to replace the factory standard plugs. (BTW, this did not change anything as far as results with my Trinity. Simply used these because of their longer life and the fact that they did not cost me anything)

I was excited with my Trinity when I purchased it, and of course the first thing I did was install the 93 canned tune and fill it up with premium so I could go try out my new toy. I immediately was getting knock counts with the monitor function.

After that happened, I jumped on these forums to read up on this stuff to see if anyone else was having this problem. After reading these forums for several months, it seems to be the general consensus that the canned tunes may have more timing than needed, or other tuning that might be more aggressive than necessary. Some people have recommend using a high octane gas, trying gas from different stations, adding a catch can, etc. Others have solved these knock problems by having custom tunes written for their vehicles where timing has been pulled, or other modifications and seem to have good results.

So here is my dumb question...

DS release a product advertising all of the great features and performance advantages which are available with their product. In fact, according to their "specific tune information", they claim 15HP, 20tq with the 93 performance tune. 13Hp,18tq with the 91 tune. 10hp/15tq with the 87 tune.

This tuner has been available for quite a while now, and has seen several software updates, fixes, and added vehicles.

There have been many complaints and questions regarding issues with the canned tuning such as knock (as stated above) and other types of issues.

If a company is going to release a product offering these gains and options, why would they supply them with canned tuning which doesn't properly work with peoples stock vehicles? Of course there are many people who have all sorts of different modifications to their vehicles have require custom tuning, but a good number of customers are those people who bought a truck and wanted to add some performance to it. So they drop $500+ on a new DS tuner looking for those gains only to find out that it doesn't really work like it is supposed to. It's counter productive to install a tune that says it works with stock or slightly modified vehicles and requires 93 octane, only to drive and watch ST and LT knock counts add up while the PCM starts retarding timing and de-tunes the engine computer to attempt to correct the knock so the engine runs safely and reliably.

Why, after all of these updates and what not would DS not load these tuners with a more realistic canned tune that people can actually install and enjoy some added performance without any issues or problems? If it is really as easy as doing some data logging and custom tuning to remove some of the added timing out of the tune to get these vehicles to a point where they run on the advertised octane rating without spark knock and actually see some performance gains, why wouldn't DS simply tweak their canned tunes to a point where they will work correctly for peoples vehicles and include them in an update where your normal guy users can easily load their canned tune and be happy?

It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It seems like it would simple for DS to modify their canned tunes a little bit and load them into a software update. There are several CMR tuners around here with good reputations for tuning peoples vehicles. Why can't one of the experts and DS do this to their canned tunes? It seems that it would make a lot of people happy to be able to just load something that works without issues.

Am I missing something here? Or is DS simply deaf to peoples complaints and issues when it comes to this stuff, or do they just not care about all of the guys out there who bought their product with the expectation to install one of the tunes that comes with it and enjoy it.

I don't think it is too much to ask from all of the people with stock trucks who just want a basic tune for their vehicle without having to spend $500+ on the tuner itself, and then spend another couple hundred dollars to have someone write a custom tune for their stock vehicle. Doesn't really seem fair, or like the best way to market a product.

[mikel]

You are making several assumptions here, let me clarify a few things.

The tunes we provide work perfectly fine for the majority of customers. In the case where your specific fuel, elevation, atmospheric conditions, etc, may not agree with the tunes we developed, we offer the user the ability to fine tune and dial it in through the combination of datalogging and user adjustable parameters. This is an area where our competitors are lacking, You get what they offer, and you are stuck with it. They have no means of custom tuning or doing anything about the logs assuming it can log relevant PIDs.

I see lots of people who seem to think that knock activity is a sign of a terrible tune. I urge everyone to use the tools to log their stock tunes. You may be appalled to see how much most stock calibrations will knock. In most cases, our tunes will clean up most of the knock you see in the stock cal, through optimizing the spark calibration and knock control.

In the case that you do see some KR, and its more than a little bit at the shifts, or doesn't recover quickly, add a little fuel, Thats the simplest way to clean it up, as HEMIs usually knock when they get a little lean.

Another thing to remember is, the longer you drive a HEMI without a catch can, the worse it is going to get. That has nothing to do with the tune, but everything to do with the terrible PCV system on these motors. Oil in the manifold leads to oil in the chamber, and oil does not like to burn. Most knock on vehicles with a few miles on them can be attributed to oil in the chambers. Once you get there, you can pull timing all day, its still going to knock.

I have to ask, if you hadn't been watching KR while driving around, would you have been pleased with what the tune did to the truck? Better throttle response, better shifting, increased low end torque, etc?

If you see KR with the 93 tune and would rather not add fuel or mess with it, load the 91 tune. It has slightly less aggressive timing maps for use with 91 octane, and that may be enough to clean it up. If it does, the first thing to look into is a different brand or type of 93 octane, as the fuel you are using may be not so great quality-wise.

In the end, this is why we have these forums, and contact us forms, etc. If you have a question, just ask. No need to decide we dont care before we have even responded to your questions

Thanks

[johnny248]

Thank you for chiming in Mike.

I wanted to start by saying that my original post was meant in no way to bash the product. I know that the Trinity is a great tool. I would have sold mine by now if I thought it was garbage.

The post was referring simply to the canned tunes. If peoples issues are actually related to overly aggressive canned tunes, then I just didn't understand why it wouldn't be simple enough to simply tone them down a bit.

I hear what you are saying about the Hemi engines and knock. However, I have read numerous posts explaining that people were able to correct or at least improve their knock counts reduced or eliminated by having a custom tuner pull some of the unneeded timing from the tunes. They seem to have had good results in doing so. If it is a matter if excessive timing in Tue canned tunes, why not just adjust them?

In my particular case, I have had good results using the MPG tune with 87,89,and 93 fuel. I have also had good results with the 87 tune while using 89 or 93 fuel. I get mixed results using the 87 tune with 87 fuel. More often than not, I still register knock readings with 87 fuel. I also get higher than stock knock counts when using the 91 or 93 tunes regardless of fuel choices.

My truck rarely sees WOT. My driving habits generally include driving around town and cruising to and from work on the hwy. I'm not an expert, but it just seems strange to me that I can register all of these knocks with normal driving between stop lights, and even more strange that I can register these counts while using the cruise control at 70mph simply driving on the express way. I always use top tier fuel , and have tried different stations. It doesn't seem to make much of a difference while running the higher octane tunes.

My truck currently has 40k in it, and the catch can was installed around 20k. Before I installed the catch can, I ran my BG fuel system / air intake cleaning apparatus both through the throttle body, AND through the PVC system to attempt to help clean out oil build up in the system.

This may be something that you normally don't do since you guys are not in the business of custom tuning, but do you think it would be possible for me to do some data logging with the canned tunes in my truck and have you guys take a look at them to see what you think about what is happening in the real world and possibly adjust something for me if it is a matter of spark knock due to timing advance with the tune?

Thanks again

[mikel]

Sure, post the log and the last tune written it was on when you logged it.

[johnny248]

OK sounds good. Are there certain log types I should log?/or set it up for certain monitoring? I've never logged anything. Just watched it while driving.

Thanks

[mikel]

the default _tuner layout will be fine.

[johnny248]

the default _tuner layout will be fine.

Ok. So, should I just make some full throttle runs from a stop??

[mikel]

if you are seeing knock at part throttle, just drive around for 5 minutes or so and work a few WOT pulls in.

[johnny248]

OK. Sounds good. Let me see what I can put together. That ka again for your help Mike.

[johnny248]

After the last update, the only preloaded monitoring is 07HemiTruck. Should I create a new layout with some certain gauges? Or can I download that tuner template somewhere?

[johnny248]

Ok, So I made two logs of some normal driving. This is 87 Performance tune, with Shell 87 fuel.

The default_tuner layout is not on my tool, so I tried to throw some monitor functions in which I thought might be needed. If this helps and tells you anything that would be awesome. If not I have to figure out how to add the layout to my tool. I can see it in the downloader browser, but it doesn't show up on the tool as an option.

Thanks again Mike. Interested in what you can tell me about this.

[johnny248]

Mike, Will this log file work? Or do I need to have other monitors on it? No rush at all, just want to make sure that I provide you with the correct info that you need.

Thanks again

[johan]

Have you logged stock tune? That knock is not that bad at all, but try the attached tune and let us know.

[johnny248]

Have you logged stock tune? That knock is not that bad at all, but try the attached tune and let us know.

I have not logged the stock tune, but I did monitor it and it didn't do the sane thing. What's strange is that the kick counts seem to jump the most during throttle tip in. For instance on the hwy if I'm cruising at say 70 and let off the throttle and coast to about 60 and then tip into th throttle lightly to come back up to speed. That's when they start to register in the 5 range. These are not wot while at speed. Just slight tip in.

Thank you Mike and Johan. I will load this modified tune and try it out. I appreciate the support. You guys have been responsive and helpful to me.

May I ask what as changed on this tune ?

[Mike_Levy]

The reason its going up when you "tip in" is because its lugging the motor. If the tranny was smart enough to kick down that wouldn't happen.