running rich at WOT

[xsignature]

05 dodge ram 1500 u7137 not sure but pretty positive that at idol running a little lean and really rich at WOT take a look at the log let me know what you think got some knock as well at WOT.

[Quick]

At idle (closed loop operation) the car will run around 14.7:1 afr. When you go WOT (open loop operation) the PCM will add a fixed amount of fuel. The car will operate richer than 14.7:1 afr.

What you're looking at in the log is the voltage output of the narrowband sensors (something between 0v and 5v). The narrowbands will output 0.5v at 14.7:1. Somewhere a little richer than that (like around 14.0:1 or maybe high 13s) the narrowbands will be pegged and outputting close to 5v. Somewhere a little leaner than that (like around 15.5:1) the narrowbands will be pegged lean and outputting close to 0v. Your PCM (in closed loop) constantly "hunts" for 14.7 by increasing and decreasing fuel. Increases fuel until it pegs the narrowband rich and then decreases fuel until it pegs it lean, repeat... So what you're seeing in the log looks just fine (from the little bit of information it's telling you). In closed loop the car is operating at 14.7:1. In open loop the PCM is adding fuel and it's running richer than ~14.0:1. How much richer? You can't tell without a wideband gauge.

Knock looks completely fine. You floored it at 1000 rpm and only got 2.5* of knock retard which dropped off to zero immediately. The next time looks like maybe it was the 2-3 shift and you completely lifted and then floored it again and only got 1* of knock retard. You can expect a small amount of temporary knock retard around shifts, right after flooring it and when lugging the engine. As long as it stays under 3* and isn't constant don't worry about it.

[xsignature]

yea i will be getting the wide band soon but i know its possible to tell with the mv output of the narraow band i appreciate the answer im gonna try and lean it a tiny bit to see if can see the difference in mv out put but your right 14.7:1 air fuel is about is about .45v with the center of the sine wave riding on the .45v. i just want to make sure that it wont hurt to lean it out a percent or two at WOT leaving it a little rich to protect the engine ,maybe even get rid of that knock, never had that knock before guess i should have added that i added longtube headers with highflow cats and dual 3" in and out magnaflow muffler. also will dat viewer read the wideband sensors

[Quick]

When you lean out the fuel with the Predator you're leaning out WOT fuel. You're decreasing that fixed amount of fuel that's added from the PE table. You need that extra fuel at WOT. At WOT you want to be under/richer (probably well under) 13.0:1. Your narrowband pegs rich somewhere around 14.0:1. So, no, it's not possible to tell with the mv output of the narrowband. You're going to get detonation way before you see the difference in mv output from the narrowband (before the a/f gets leaner than max rich on the narrowband).

Yea, I guess you should have added that you have longtubes and highflows. If anything, you'd want to be ADDING fuel with those.

If you want, you could try tuning by "knock retard". lean it out and add timing until you get knock. Kind of like shooting in the dark but it could get you in the ball park. Like I said, from your logs (which don't tell the whole story since you don't have a wideband) it all looks pretty optimal right now. What is it that makes you think there's improvement to be had?

[xsignature]

i see what your saying but id rather not shoot in the dark. like you said its not bad and it can wait till i get the wideband especially since i have no cels. and theres always room for improvement. i was just worried about the knock didnt have any before the longtubes.

[Quick]

Well, the long tubes and highflows should give you more air so it should have leaned it out just a bit. You were probably just a little fat before and now it's probably close to just right. If you see occassional knock retard, up to 3* (especially right after you floor it or around shifts) it's fine. Over that, you probably want to ADD fuel. If it's pretty much constant knock retard of any amount then you probably want to ADD fuel. If adding fuel, up to about 11.8:1 AFR doesn't fix it then you'd probably want to pull timing and start over with the fuel adjustment. Past that, you would need a CMR tune.

[xsignature]

makes sense. can you recommend a wideband setup for the 05 dodge ram 1500. again appreciate the help.

[Quick]

I'd go with any one that uses a Bosch sensor (that's almost all of them). After that you want a brand with a quality controller (most of them) and after that it's personal preference on the display gauge type and style, and price. Good to have one that does logging of some sort. For integrated logging you would have to go with a scan gauge that takes a 0v-5v input from the controller (like the DashDaq) or you could wait for the Trinity.

Most people go with Innovate. Quality gauge with a lot of options.
PLX is quality stuff but a bit more expensive. Modular system with some slick OLED display gauges.
FAST
etc.

A lot of them also provide a narrowband output so you can use one sensor (in the existing bung) for both the car (narrowband) and the gauge (wideband). I would NOT recommend going that route. Get a separate bung installed for the wideband sensor and leave the stock narrowbands alone. You only need one (put it on the driver's side, although that's not critical).

Check the truck forums to see what people are doing for display gauge mounting options. That might influence your decision.

[HoustonHemi]

makes sense. can you recommend a wideband setup for the 05 dodge ram 1500. again appreciate the help.

I have an AEM wideband gauge from moesperformance.com and also have the srt10 oem A-pillar which has a gauge mount in it, also from moes.

[xsignature]

that's who i get all my stuff from. they need a for sale section on this forum. are you selling your wideband or were you just referencing moes. also i will be putting in a 180 thermostat and i cant remeber what to tune for that i could of swore there was something to change i remeber seeing it on a site and i cant find it now maybe it was spark i cant remember.

[johan]

For a t-stat just lower the fan on/off temps by another 10deg from the canned tunes.

[xsignature]

i new it was something simple thanx again. and one more thing if i were to put in a stage 3 valve body from sharadons and a high stall converter is it recommend to get the tranny tuned for the shift points i will be getting the kit that moes sells with the stage 3 valve body and the torque converter heres the web page . http://moesperformance.com/index.php?ma ... s_id=12147

[Quick]

ummm, I hope you don't take this the wrong way because it's not the intent. I think you should take a few weeks to understand some of this stuff. Get on a couple of lx or hemi truck forums and just ask how it works and what it's for. Get a good grip on the the parameters and what they mean. With fuel and timing you're risking your motor. With the torque converter you may not be getting what you think you are. If you're actually going to invest some significant cash in this you don't want to be dissappointed.

A torque converter has nothing to do with shift points. The shift points you can adjust are the rpms where the car will shift at WOT. A torque converter basically controls the rpms where the transmission stops "slipping" (stall rpm). If you sit at a stand still with your foot hard on the brake, the car in gear and rev the engine, it won't rev over some rpm. Thats the stall rpm where the converter "locks up" and doesn't slip any more. I don't know where the stock converter stalls at but it's going to be below 2800. When the converter stalls it's like letting the clutch all the way out on a manual.

Ok, stock your car may be shifting (at WOT) at 5500 rpm or something like that. When you shift into the next gear you're going to be somewhere from the high 3000s to low 4000s rpm (don't know about the trucks). You're going to be well over the stall rpm of your torque converter. So at WOT the torque converter ONLY effects starting out in 1st gear. You can do a brake stall up to the converter stall rpm and make your launch higher up in the power band. It has nothing to do with the shift points.

The downside of a high stall torque converter is when you're crusing around town (all the rest of the time you're not racing). Most of the time you're running well under 2800 rpm crusing down city streets. That means that it's going to feel like your clutch is slipping all the time (and actually it is). maybe surging, soft pedal feel under light acceleration and a definite decrease in mpg.

Basically a high stall torque converter's only advantage is for launching your car. and there are going to be driveability trade offs at anything less than WOT.

[johan]

Yeah i really do not see any need to change the trans settings for those mods.

[xsignature]

i understand how a torque converter works i believe for the trucks its about 2000 rpm maybe a little less stock. and i understand that timing and fuel your risking the motor but with the more mods i make without adjusting fuel and timing i also am risking the motor i'm not just changing my fuel and timing in the blind i havn't even touched it until i get a wideband to make absolutely certain that afr is where it should be. and i guess the question should have been with the stage three valve body should i be concerned with the line pressure since they are modified for firm to just hard shifts. and i believe the predator already increases the line pressure for the 05 dodge ram. should i be worried about that combination. thats what i should have asked but your right i can definitely use a lesson.